Lisette’s Take: “I wasn't surprised for a second that she was the first person that Dolores Huerta would do an interview with. That did not surprise me for a second. In fact, there was a part of me that felt like it is right. It is just, that's the way it's supposed to be.” To hear all episodes and learn more about Lisette Nieves, visit Lisette-Nieves.com
Maria Hinojosa is a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and founder of Futuro Media Group, which covers untold stories about underrepresented communities. A four-time Emmy Award winner, Maria is the host and executive producer of Latino USA and the political podcast In The Thick. In 2022 she and Futuro won the Pulitzer Prize in Audio Reporting for the podcast Suave. It tells the story of David Luis "Suave" Gonzalez, who was sentenced to life without parole at 17, and his journey toward unexpected freedom after 30+ years in prison. The 7-part series touches on themes of incarceration, redemption, and the relationship between a journalist and her source.
Lisette Nieves: Good afternoon, everyone. I'm so excited. Welcome to the Junction Podcast with me, Lisette, and I have an incredible guest today. As you know, Maria Hinojosa, who is extraordinary, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, founder of Futuro Media Group. She covers untold stories about underrepresented communities. She's a four-time Emmy Award winner. Maria is a host and executive producer of Latino USA and the political podcast In The Thick. In 2022, she and Futuro won a Pulitzer Prize and audio reporting for the podcast Suave. And so I just want to say she's just done an amazing amount of work. So thank you, Maria. Thank you. Welcome.
Maria Hinojosa: Lisette, claro, of course. I love spending time with you, even if it is on a podcast.
Nieves: Even if it is on the podcast, right? Because you and I have been trying in real life. Things happen, right? But we will get together. We will get together. I want you to know that I'm wearing a hummingbird pin for you today, because I know you're a bird watcher.
Hinojosa: Oh my God. Well, but in particular, hummingbirds. I don't know if for everybody, but for Mexicans, hummingbirds signify spirits that are coming from the other side to make a visit. So whenever I see a hummingbird, whether it's in New York, New York City or Connecticut or Punta Cana or wherever I may be, I'm like, "Hmm, who's visiting?" So thank you for that. I love that.
Nieves: What was your last bird-watching adventure?
Hinojosa: Oh, I happened to be in Connecticut this past weekend. I haven't been for a long time because of life. And I was having a call and I look out onto a lake, a small lake, and I just happened to be looking out when an eagle was soaring and soaring. And yeah, I feel very blessed. I'm not that person who has a pair of binoculars and is keeping track and writing down. I do have a book and I do know some names. I'm a bird whisperer. I love to hear the birds. And then when I'm lucky enough, I'll just spot one coming by. So yeah, that was my latest.
Nieves: Oh, I love that. I love hearing that. I was just in Hawaii. We just did a conference on Indigenous youth and healing and it was a really powerful experience. We had Puerto Ricans also talking about the island of Puerto Rico and you name it. I'm also talking about this question of sovereignty, all these things that you've done a lot of work on. But one of the things that I was able to see, I was able to see parrots that I wouldn't have seen. I saw a lot of beautiful things. So that's my last bird watching.
Hinojosa: Good for you.
Nieves: All right. So, Maria, a lot's happened in the last few weeks, but I wasn't surprised for a second that you were the first person that Dolores Huerta would do an interview with. That did not surprise me for a second. In fact, there was a part of me that felt like it is right. It is just, that's the way it's supposed to be.
And for our listeners, this was regarding Cesar Chavez and the American Farm Workers Union and movement around all of the information that came out regarding him being a predator, assault. We could go through all of it, right? It's been all over the news. Talk to me a little bit about the interview.
Hinojosa: The thing about the interview is that it kind of now has taken on a life of its own.
Nieves: It has.
Hinojosa: I did not know this. One of my students said, "Oh, I was in LA at La Plaza where they were painting over..." And La Plaza is a very famous part. It's where it's kind of Mexican American history in Los Angeles. And they were painting over Cesar's face and doing that to the mural. But then they had taken a picture... No, they had put a QR code of Latino USA and said, "Here's the first interview that Dolores gave, scan the QR code so you could listen to it." And I'm just like, "It's on a wall-
Nieves: I love that.
Hinojosa: ... on a building and a mural in La Plaza." And the reason why I think that the interview has taken on a life of its own is because it's just very raw. Again, I was able to show compassion and concern for Dolores. Dolores is 95 years old. She's having to come to terms with the fact that she is now a public rape survivor.
Nieves: Yes, she is.
Hinojosa: I had to come to terms with that and I'm, as you know, Lisette, I'm very public. Yes. I didn't have to be public about what happened to me when I was 16, but I feel like it's my job to be able to talk about this. So in an interview, I'm now having to say to Dolores," You and I are part of the same club. We are survivors." And I know that when people first started to talk to me about this, like my therapist, I was like, "Nah, no, wait. No." Dolores is processing this. I'm having to ask her the question like, "How did you not know? Dolores, you're brilliant." I think she, as a survivor, I understand. First of all, this happened in 1960 and 1966 to her.
Nieves: That's right.
Hinojosa: Both resulted in pregnancies, but you believe that you're the only one that this has happened to. You look at the person who assaulted you, and more often than not, women know the men who raped them, and you're just like, "But this person would not do this to another human being." I'm sure Delores in her mind was like, ‘Oh, he did this to me because I'm so close to him.’ Or, ‘He did this to me because he knows that I idolize him.’ But not necessarily Dolores saying, ‘Oh my God, and then he's now going to do this and groom girls and teenagers and assault other women.’ So having to ask those really difficult questions, the technical issue was really intense because Dolores didn't have any WiFi where she was in hiding and so we had to create a hotspot. And so there were parts of the interview that would just drop out and I had to just kind of pull myself together and try and do the follow through with the next question.
So there was care and gentleness when there needed to be. And then there were difficult questions and Dolores is not... She's grown up her whole life being asked really difficult questions by journalists forever, not about her being a rape survivor, but hard questions. So those questions, she knew I was going to ask them.
Nieves: Yeah. And you felt it. You felt it in the interview. You felt it in real time. I think the piece that will forever stay with me and as someone who's been through stuff in her life too, was exactly that, Maria, which was the, if I knew children were at risk, if I knew that other people... She was bearing the weight of the grief and the pain of the others as well too. You felt that there. You felt that. So thank you for just as always doing that with enormous dignity, but us feeling the moment of what she was going through in real time.
Hinojosa: Yeah. I said it was an honor and a horror to get the first interview.
Nieves: Absolutely. No question. No question. Before we started the show, we talked a little bit about this and it's in the name of movements, women in particular have been the collateral damage, right? And what they've gone through. We know this happened during the Civil Rights Movement. We know this happened in a lot of different movements. So I just want to really acknowledge that this isn't an isolated situation. And exactly for the reason that you said is that anything that was seen as a vulnerability could have brought down the movement.
Hinojosa: Yeah, but I think-
Nieves: It's not an excuse. It's not an excuse.
Hinojosa: No, we have to put this within the context of what we are all living with in real time. A president who is a convicted felon on questions regarding sexual abuse and the Epstein Files where no one except for Ghislaine Maxwell has been charged in this country. In other countries, people have fallen from grace, lost their positions. And so the question is, men with huge egos, unchecked power, or people who bow to them. And I think whether it's on the ultra-right, like what we have with Donald Trump, if you can categorize left or right in this case, or someone like Cesar Chavez, who was leading a farm worker movement, he was leading, along with Dolores Huerta, a movement of the most powerless people in the country. So yes, Cesar Chavez.
Nieves: And successfully leading.
Hinojosa: And successfully leading, but it was the tens of thousands of workers who were striking, who were creating that movement in California that ended up changing history. Look, Dolores, I've learned so many things from her.
Nieves: Yes.
Hinojosa: And one of the things that Dolores talks about a lot is the power of people power. And I remember asking her like, "Well, what do you mean?" And she was like, "You can talk as much as you want. You can put things on Twitter/X or on... But none of that moves unless you have people power." And so this is the way she understands political power. So it was the tens of thousands of farm workers literally using their bodies to make a political statement, whether or not they were here with or without papers.
And that I think is what's so important. Delores says, "Look, they were the most powerless, but if you put them together and you organize, you have people power and that can shift history." On the side that... I've said these things where I'm just like, I just can't believe they're coming out of my mouth. But Cesar Chavez was a brilliant strategist along with Dolores, who was creating it. But if Cesar Chavez was a brilliant organizer strategist, he was also a very calculated strategist on how to groom and abuse and rape women and girls. That's the ugly part. He had this going at the same time.
Nieves: He used it for evil. Absolutely. I think there are different movements that happened. We saw the MeToo movement, and in some ways this is a MeToo movement, particularly for Latinas, which culturally maybe hadn't felt the same, I don't know, freedom or voicing or... There's something really interesting about this, particularly the amount of unsolicited emails even I've received of people who were moved by this and said, "I want to share something."
Hinojosa: I know that was-
Nieves: So if I'm receiving them, I can't imagine what you're receiving, Maria.
Hinojosa: Yeah. I'm a little bit like, okay-
Nieves: Yeah, this is-
Hinojosa: ... thank you for telling me, but also I'm dealing with this situation right here, but I also understand what it feels like when you're able to say something like this. I also think that there's... Lisette, one of the things that you and I talk about a lot is the power of the Latino, Latina, in this case vote, right? Just the voting power. How Latinos and Latinas, especially in the Southwest, where Cesar Chavez is huge, the way they've handled it, many people are saying, "Well, it's a model." You covered the statues, you took down the names, you changed the celebration, you went full on. I think this is very hard for Delores to watch, by the way. I think this is very, very painful for her to watch also, but the rest of the country can kind of be like, "Wow, they did that." And if you think about Latinos and Latinas being the fastest growing-
Nieves: Without overthinking it.
Hinojosa: Without overthinking it. Now, I also think we have to have the conversations, right?
Nieves: Yes.
Hinojosa: We do have to do the thinking, but to me, it's another example of Latinos and Latinas and how they can engage in their democracy, their democratic acts, and it's, okay, a lesson for the country.
Nieves: Yeah. And a chance to really, you're right, I'm excited because I have to see a positive side of this too, but in particular, the gendered pieces that happen in here, particularly within Latinos that we don't often discuss. So I think there is room for that conversation right now in a major way. I'm counting on you. I know you're going to make it happen.
Hinojosa: I'm working on it.
Nieves: So I was so excited and so was everyone else when you received the Pulitzer Prize for Suave. And it was not just that it was a Pulitzer Prize, we believe you deserve hundreds of those, but it was about what it was about. It was about a relationship you built over decades, conversations that were recorded. Actually, it was like a historical documentary in some ways, right? Can you bring us up to date? What's happening with Suave now? Where is he? And is there going to be more coming out?
Hinojosa: So Suave season one was the result of... Okay, I'm just going to be honest. I never gave up on trying to tell this story. You have to imagine that everybody in my team had never met Suave. He was just a phone call, but they hadn't met him. So I had to basically convince my team like, "No, there is a story here." And then of course, my producer was like, "Oh, there is a story here and that's how season one is born." I didn't even know that the team had submitted for a Pulitzer. I was really, really shocked when we won. Then if Suave season one is kind of like the story of Suave and the truth about what happened and confronting the truths of you spent 31 years-
Nieves: And stories of incarceration, yes.
Hinojosa: Season two was really about the emotional rollercoaster. When you get out, everybody's like, "Oh, you're out. Good." Actually, when you're out is when... You're not taught how to get prepared to come out, especially if you're sentenced to life. So the emotional overload, the trauma of institutionalization, all of that is what happens in season two. We go back to Puerto Rico and take Suave to see his family. There are many revelations that happen in season two, but it really is an emotional rollercoaster ride. I think much more so than in season one. We got nominated for an Ambie, so that's like kind of getting nominated for an Oscar for podcasts. So that was great. And Suave and I, we are very committed to doing season three.
Nieves: Yes.
Hinojosa: But as you know, it's not easy to raise money right now for independent journalism and specifically for those kinds of stories, but Suave and I have been keeping a running file open. If we could do season three, what would it look like? And one of the biggest updates that we're actually going to report it in its own miniseries for the Suave and for Latino USA. This is amazing, Lisette.
Nieves: Oh, I love it.
Hinojosa: And you don't know this, but I love it. The person who taught, you hear about him in season two. His name is Frank Ross. He is sentenced to life in prison when he's like in his late 40s. He was a successful Black businessman who gets into a bar fight. He was a writer and then he's sentenced to life in prison and he commits to teaching everybody in the prison how to read and write. Therefore, Frank Ross teaches Suave, who was illiterate, how to read and write. Frank Ross is now 93 years old, in very bad shape, battling cancer, dementia, et cetera, et cetera. And we report on the issue of compassionate release, which is with an elder prison population, can you let them out? What purpose is this serving? Very hard to get compassionate release. Well, basically because of our reporting, because of Suave talking about Frank Ross, he's been released.
Nieves: Oh my goodness.
Hinojosa: So he is no longer in chains. He's in hospice because they will only release you if they know that you're going to die, but he's not in chains. And so for Suave and our team... And Suave just says, "Winning a Pulitzer, yes, changed our lives in many ways, but this is the greatest gift to have given a human being his freedom." And I went and I hung out with Frank and I met him and he was lucid that day.
Nieves: And it would have never happened.
Hinojosa: Would have never happened. He teaches Suave how to read and write, which helps in everything regarding our podcast and our work and his life. And then Suave helps get him out. Right, it's like perfect for season three.
Nieves: Oh my goodness. Oh, you're giving me chills. I can't wait. I can't wait because it is one of those moments where... In the work that you get to do, you get to see people and give them dignity. And how often do people not have the opportunity to return that, right? And this was in the most extreme form he got to do that. Oh. Oh, that's beautiful. Maria, I couldn't have a conversation with you without talking about what's happening in the present political context outside of Dolores. We have ICE, we have a president, we have an assault on communities. I'm thinking back, and you know I teach as well too, I have used your Frontline documentary many times where you talk about detention centers and the abuse in detention centers. This is not new news, right? I'm thinking of... It's interesting how it's presented as new each time.
Hinojosa: I swear.
Nieves: I'm like, wow, this is fascinating when it becomes... I don't like to use the word mainstream either, but when it becomes... Talk to me about this context and what we're living in.
Hinojosa: You're exactly right, Lisette. There are many, many, many days where I'm just like, ‘I've been reporting about this and y'all didn't want to listen.’
Nieves: Exactly.
Hinojosa: You, in fact, not only didn't want to listen, you dismissed me. You said that I was an alarmist, that I was too immigrant-y, too Mexican-y, too interested in telling this story, and there's both sides to a story. And so I do-
Nieves: To anti-establishment.
Hinojosa: Right, to anti-establishment. And on my social media, I'll just say, I tried to warn-
Nieves: Oh, you did.
Hinojosa: ... the story of private prisons coming into small towns and selling people a bill of goods, and then it doesn't work out that way. That's happening all across our country. The sexual assault of women and girls and men that, again, some people are like, ‘Oh my God, it's happening.’ It's like, yeah, we told you in the 2011 documentary, we told you that they were being fed food with maggots. We told you that. So the fact that now we've gotten to the point where ICE is in our airports, it's like I also... I was waving the red flag. I was saying, okay, you think it's just going to be against immigrants like me who were not born in this country, right? It's going to be on everyone , and here we are.
Nieves: Absolutely. And wait 'til election day.
Hinojosa: Renee Goode, all of the Mexicans who have been killed or attacked. I mean, Silverio Villegas was shot in the back in Chicago by ICE. So this morning I was just like, but we need the brilliant minds now to start talking about how we're going to deconstruct. I still haven't... Now I'm a journalist, right? So I can think about this, but that's actually like, I don't study policy or systems management, but we need to start hearing how are we going to deconstruct this? What is the other narrative? If the narrative of, oh my God, all these criminals, which is not true.
Nieves: Absolutely not.
Hinojosa: So that is a lie. There are no-
Nieves: And data has proven that, over and over again.
Hinojosa: And the data shows it.
Nieves: And data, obviously if data drilled the narrative, we'd have a different narrative. Right.
Hinojosa: Exacto. And that's one of the things that I actually was very clear with Kamala Harris when I was interviewing her. I was like, "But you know the data, so why are you continuing to say this like, 'Oh my God, we got to close the border and fentanyl and all this when you know the data?'"
I'm still waiting now to see which leader, political leader or leaders or party is going to be able to say, okay, borrón y cuenta nueva right? We're going to throw the baby out with the bath water. We're starting from zero. And starting from zero means these are not illegal human beings. We never refer to them as illegal immigrants ever. And we start with the facts, what they have done and continue to do for our country.
Nieves: Yeah. When I know I'm talking to someone who I know is on the short list for so many people in case something happens, you, me, it's real. It's real. Then it's not right.
Hinojosa: Yes. Correct.
Nieves: Look, we're going to end. I wish we could talk for three more hours, but we'll save that for next time. What's next for Maria?
Hinojosa: Well, I've got a book that I want to write that's proving to be a little bit difficult and I'm like, "Why is this being so hard?" I like to tell my students not everything is a yes, even though you have a Pulitzer Prize and all of these awards, not everything is a yes. So I'm working on that. I have a new podcast.
Nieves: Yay.
Hinojosa: I think I told you, I know people are going to be shocked, but who knows? I might just find somebody who wants to be one of our advertisers. I'm going to do a sex podcast.
Nieves: Are you really? I love it.
Hinojosa: It's an intergenerational sex podcast, “Sin Pelos en la Lengua”. I think people... And it's a way of healing, right?
Nieves: Yes.
Hinojosa: And it's not just like, "Oh my God, sex life is great," but rather, how do we understand the trauma of Gisele Pelicot, who by the way, fell in love again. I still remain hopeful and creative and I'm not going to give up hope. I did say to my students yesterday, it's like, "This is not easy. I'm having a hard time. You should know. I am. I'm having a hard time." A lot of stuff has come up, but this is what we do. This is why you have to love what you do and then find a way to take care of yourself, however it is. And it's in for the long haul. That's what I also... You and I know this.
Nieves: It is. It is.
Hinojosa: You think you're going to do this just until you're 40 and that everything's going to be... No, your whole life, and that is also the struggle for our democracy. It's your whole life. There isn't a point of nirvana. It's forever.
Nieves: There's no destination on that. We keep this on. We pass the torch. Maria, thank you. Thank you for being you. Thank you for being our treasure in journalism and truth-telling. We're lucky to have you. I'm excited about the next steps. I can't wait to see what you write. I can't wait to hear this new podcast.
Hinojosa: Thank you, Lisette.
Nieves: Thank you.
Hinojosa: No, and to you, Lisette, you are also... I'm like, "That Lisette, man. How did she..." A leader, Una Chingona.
Nieves: Mira.
Hinojosa: Te mira mucho.
Nieves: Egual, egual. Thank you.
Hinojosa: Thank you.
Credits: Thank you for listening!
At The Junction, we reflect on the moments that make us — with today’s most impactful leaders. The show was created and hosted by me, Lisette Nieves, and produced by LWC Studios.
This show is available everywhere you listen to podcasts, and on YouTube. I encourage you to share video and audio episodes by linking to them on social media, websites, and by sharing them in your online affinity groups. Our executive editor is Juleyka Lantigua. Michelle Baker is our senior producer. Alyson Rich and Cesar Ventura provided administrative support. CDM Studios is our live recording location. Our theme song is “La Juntura Cultural,” arranged by Randy Seriguchi, Jr. and D'Artanian Woodard, produced by Randy Seriguchi, Jr., and recorded by Farmacy Studio.
For more information and episode transcripts, visit Lisette-Nieves.com. If you’d like to reach out, please email us at Hello@LWCStudios.com.